Greg Fleming MP: Te Reo, Politics and the Power of Listening

We trace Greg Fleming’s path from charity leader to MP and his decision to learn Te Reo Māori as an adult, linking language revitalisation with a culture of listening and free speech. We test tokenism, compulsion, and what realistic, hopeful goals for Te Reo might look like.

• representing a highly mixed electorate and staying accessible
• dialogue as a proven way to reduce radicalisation
• awkward first steps bringing tikanga into workplace rhythms
• staff learning pathways and hosting community classes
• founding a faith-based immersion college in West Auckland
• confidence, pronunciation, and generous feedback loops
• clarity versus symbolism for government department names
• tokenism risks and how to invite, not force, language growth
• realistic goals for bilingual capacity and teacher limits
• supporting Te Reo in homes, churches, and Parliament

If you have any questions for us, do send them in at podcast@fsu.nz

Transcript

Greg’s Path To Parliament

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Free to Speak, the New Zealand Free Speech Union podcast. If you enjoy the show, subscribe for uncensored conversations and free speech news from New Zealand and beyond.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

I'm your host today, Dane Giroud. Today we're going to be speaking to national MP for Mongol Kekair, Greg Fleming. Greg Fleming is a speaker of Tadeo Māori. It's a language that he has learned as an adult. That's correct, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

It is indeed. Yes. Yep, the recent learner.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Great, great. Now, I do not speak Māori. I I probably have a bit of a better appreciation and understanding than most the average person, I would say, because I did work for many years on Mori TV productions. And when you're in an edit suite for hours and hours, you you just you just pick up a lot of different words. Now uh at the free speech union, there's not uh too much opportunity to campaign on behalf of uh Tideo Māori because it it there doesn't seem to be too many legal uh battles uh that that we would uh sort of campaign on. But I do want to have this conversation and others like it, because I believe and we've talked about this a lot as an organization, that beyond the legal, uh that there is a culture of free speech that we need to be fostering. And for me, um uh a bit of generosity to to D Al Māori is it would really it would embody that. So um it would be good just to um hear your journey really, um, how you came to the language, but maybe just you know how how you came to being an MP to start with, you know, just so we can get a good picture of who you are, where you're from, and and uh and all of that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah. Cure Design, thanks for this. Uh yeah, so I was born and raised on a small farm in the Wararapa, um, or Waira, I think I can't remember how we used to say it back then, but it didn't sound like that. There we go, that's the way and uh and uh well I just trained at um uh a Victoria University uh in Wellington and uh got married uh a staff to uni, uh, worked at a charity there, went and worked in business in London. I'm a chartered accountant by profession, um, still am a member of the of the institute. And uh when we came back from London, um I went to start up uh um a uh a couple of small businesses. It was only a few months into that. Took this call from a couple who had just started an organization called uh Parenting Place, where at the time it was known as Parenting with Confidence. Uh, they were looking for someone to come and help them do some fundraising and set up the business side of the charity. Um I wasn't interested initially, uh, but after a couple of days of reflecting on it, I thought, well, this is probably something that I should do because I'll I'll give it a year. Uh moved to Auckland and um, yeah, life never got back on the track that I had intended. Uh so I'd always thought that I'd be the person uh uh making the money in business and giving it to charitable organizations, but instead I've been the one running the organizations and asking for the money. Um and it's been a been a fantastic it was a fantastic 25 years. Um started, um I was I was at Parenting Place for about three or four years, and then went off to start my first charity uh that became 10 or 12 charities. We started over the years, found myself eventually back at Parenting Place as a CEO. And uh and then subsequent to that, um thought, well, if I'm ever going to uh knock on the door of Parliament, um now is probably when I should do it. Sort of just hit my early 50s and yeah, doors opened um uh in a way that um I hadn't hadn't anticipated, and to be honest, I was, if I was really honest, I was I was really hoping each door I knocked on I was hoping wouldn't open. Um so I was pretty reluctant uh arrival at Parliament a couple of years ago, but it's actually turned out to be a um overall a very um very rewarding experience and one which now having been there for a couple of years, I realise oh, I think I can actually contribute to this place. Um and um and it it doesn't it doesn't have to make me a worse version of myself. But they were the two reservations I'd always had about coming here. So many of the roles that I'd had and so much of the work that I was doing had me interfacing with parliament that I had I had um been very much put off by the A, the culture of the place and B the inefficiency of the place. I remember having a conversation with Sabille English about a year before I put my hand up to be considered as a candidate, and he asked me what my reservations were. I when I uh said those two things, he uh uh he he you know he referenced himself in terms of someone who was here for 30 years and and and seemed to live pretty well, which you know he he certainly did um uh as in in terms of who he became and who who he was and and is today. Um, but also just in terms of of getting stuff done, he said to me, look, you know, y yes, parliament is an unusual beast, it's complex systems, but um, if you apply yourself well, he said, which you will, Greg, you learn the learn the situation, you you build relationships and you will actually get stuff done. And and and he's been right on both those accounts. So yeah, the first couple of years have not been anywhere near as as terrifying or soul destroying as I had uh as I had been been concerned.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Um I so sorry, uh I'll just jump in. I I don't really have that experience. I would have been extremely cynical, and I've said this before before becoming part of the free speech union, because I I didn't know how much change a group like this could make, but we have made change and and and brought a lot of attention to to issues, but it does come down to the individual, I think. It's like look at Steven Joyce. I mean, you can't say that Stephen Joyce didn't affect change when he got in there, you know. He just had that mindset and he was able to do it.

Representing A Deeply Mixed Electorate

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yep, yep, he really did. Yeah, and in his case, he had the added um yeah uh construct of uh of coming in at the beginning of a three-term government, uh, and by being a list MP uh and being so well connected with the party, he was gonna give in a place of responsibility straight away. He was able to focus entirely on on just the ministerial responsibilities. And yeah, I mean what he did was you know I'm still in awe of the number of things that he he did. And you know, I just wish that um wish that he'd had longer hair. But you're right, yes, it it comes down, it it it it does, it it absolutely comes down to the individual, it comes down to the kind of mindset that they bring here. Do they are they gonna get distracted by uh the actual uh politics of the place, or are they actually just gonna see um the changes that um that they can affect, um the work that needs to be done and just get on with that? Um and and I I guess I had I had seen that in in in watching the experiences of Stephen and others and you know Bellinglish and so so forth. But um the thing that surprised me is I I guess I had thought you could probably only do that if you were a cabinet minister uh or at least a minister. Um but what I've discovered is you can you can actually do stuff from the backbench as well. So that's it's it's it's what's a bit encouraging.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

I I was gonna get to this a bit later, but now we're on it, I might talk about it a bit now. Um in terms of like uh your electorate is and it's sort of broadened, hasn't it? There were recent changes, is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah, yep. They um they gave us back in August uh Pamure. So now the electorate uh runs from the State Highway 20 on Hillsborough across to and including Pamure. So we have a lot of that that that waterfront down there as well. So yeah, it's a it's a very diverse electorate and uh of a good size, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

So you'd have a lot of because Panmuir when I was growing up, because I was I brought brought up in Otahohu, it was still quite a very working class. I'd say it may have gentrified in parts, but it would still have that element in there. Um and then Greenland you probably could couldn't really call working class. So you're you're looking after an extremely diverse massively, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, there was a moment during the campaign that really hit home was I was um I was down on Waitangi Road in Orange, so down the bottom of Onyhonga, uh just between Onyhunger and and in Penrose. And I was uh having uh a conversation with with a couple of families who were in one of the King Order uh estates there, and um, you know, just unpacking their life story with them and seeing how I might be able to help if I became an MP. And I mean the yeah, you you you imagine what their stories were like. I mean, the the cards that these people had been dealt in life were just horrendous. One of them was a was an was an immigrant from um from Somalia, and um, yeah, I mean they were just yeah, barely barely existing. Uh and um then ten minutes later, I found myself on Mongolkirk Avenue, where you can't you can't buy a home for less than about seven or eight million. And uh and these, I mean I I could, you know, I I could have driven between these two places in, you know, in about six or seven minutes. And and I represent both these communities, um, which is um, yeah, uh it's it's well it's it's sobering. It's um it's a privilege to represent that or all these communities. Um yeah, but it's um it's certainly a poignant and ongoing reminder of of uh yeah, of the complexities of New Zealand society. Um so when you when they gave me Pamure, they uh they they certainly gave me um well it's it's certainly a diverse community, like you've got um you you've got some areas that will would would be you're quite enthusiastic about my party's politics. Um but I think uh from an electoral point of view, it certainly hasn't helped me. I think it was 27% national party support with the last election, that particular area. So I'm gonna have to work extra hard to try and uh retain the electorate this November.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Well the other thing about, you know, we we have the Stephen Joyce's and and uh you know and who is sort of you know transmission gully and all that stuff and all the big the big the big show, but just being someone just being someone people felt if people felt you were accessible and they can just uh speak to you even if not every uh problem is going to be solved instantly. The fact that they can just I you know that's what I like about local that sort of localized democracy, like the fact that people can, you know, make a date and sit down with you and talk, I think it goes a long way to healing. You know, like I I think it's a it's a really important aspect here. Like someone that is accessible and can hear people is got it's got to be a big part of this.

Being Heard As Democratic Glue

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah, a hundred percent. So what one of the many different uh complex issues you can imagine I'm working on um in my electorate uh is around the um the the the the neighbors of um a large development that's happening uh on the south side of the Ellis Lee race course along Ladies Mile and uh and yeah, a number of homes have have um been, it does appear to be, well, they've certainly been detrimentally impacted, and their argument is that that is from the effects of the of the of the development, and and that's you know, I now find myself in this in this mediation space essentially between the developer and these and these residents. Uh, but there was a story in Someday Start Times this week uh in in which the in which the reporter had come with me as I visited some of the various homes um last week and held a community meeting and uh including with the with the CEO of the development company. And there was my my favorite quote in it, my most rewarding quote in it was when was when this one householder said, you know, um Greg came into my house and and uh he was genuinely empathetic, and then she goes and I felt really heard. And I was like, oh, those four words, yes, like that's if there's that's exactly what you're saying. If I mean, yeah, yes, obviously the most important thing I can do is to actually uh you know sort people's problems. Uh, but but but that's not always well, seldom is that within my control, but but them being heard, that is something that's in my control. Like if I'm if I'm if I'm genuinely engaged in the issue, if I'm if I'm available and then I genuinely listen, well, that's all on me. So uh that when I came into this job, I'm like, that's that's that's definitely what I want to do. Um and you know, I I would say that when I look back over the hundreds of of cases that we have dealt with and everything from around housing, particularly Kyanger Order, uh, immigration, um, winds, um, MOE, um, so on and so on. So a lot to do with Auckland transport and Auckland Council issues, and say, I would say we've probably been able to deliver a satisfactory solution in probably two-thirds of those cases. So um there's certainly no no end of them. Yeah, I was talking about it with a colleague over breakfast this morning, a much more experienced MP, just about um about how many of these cases come up, you know, just hundreds and hundreds of them. And you can't get to all of them, but it's um I I think it's definitely a highlight of the job being able to work on those local local cases.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Yeah, I think I was saying in in one of the podcasts we did last week that like there's no empirical evidence that say hate speech laws work. There's there's still no empirical evidence, but there is empirical evidence that dialogue reduces radicalization. Yeah, you know, which is really interesting. So if people feel they can vent, it is gonna take the steam out, it's gonna take the the bitterness out. And and I think that that's um a really important aspect of free speech that people sort of sort of don't grasp enough, you know, like people need to be heard, you know. It doesn't matter who they are either, you know?

SPEAKER_01 13:23

That's exactly right. Yeah, and and and and I would say that the single biggest challenge that we have um in terms of um uh fostering or re-fostering a really constructive public square is for people to to to be genuinely heard. So when people are sitting behind their keyboards, um they're not they're not actually listening to each other. Uh and uh w where it because because because it actually takes a form of relationship, it takes um uh careful, curated conversation for people to actually generally heard. I uh the most important um uh helpful book um that I've read in recent years, and I read it again when I came into politics, and I've read it again subsequently and and encouraged as many of my colleagues as possible to read it. I don't know how successful I've been on that, but I'll I'll uh it must just be time for me to send it around again. It's called the uh the uh righteous mind. Um, and the byline is why good people are divided by religion and politics. And it's by by an American uh anthropologist called Jonathan Height, H. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

He he's a he's a name that a lot of our supporters will know.

Dialogue Over Hate Speech Laws

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah, yeah. Outstanding. Uh, and and and and this book was his this is the one that made him famous. Uh it's essentially the contemporary version of his of his doctorate work, and uh he's looking at uh the the essence of morality. So what what what what what is morality? He breaks it down, uh distills it down to sort of six different um uh um reactions or responses that people have to various issues, and then and then he likens it to uh a um a sort of a six-channel sound soundboard um and different people have have have different channels up and down. Uh and and in and in laying all of this out, essentially through through through understanding that people hold different views, that doesn't make them immoral, uh, it doesn't make them evil, it doesn't make them disgusting, it just means that they have a different set of uh of moral emphases. Um, that but if you if if you can if you can if you can understand that framework, then that gives you the the uh the foundation from which to be able to listen to them carefully and actually hear what it is that they are saying, and and perhaps even more critically, you can then speak to them or with them in a way that they actually hear what you're saying. Um I was on a select committee, I think, yesterday, and someone said the most someone quoted, I forget what it was. Anyway, but the anyway, the point they made was was that the art, I know what it was, yeah, it was the Minister of Mental Health, Matt DC, in the caucus room last night. We're having a policy discussion. And he said that that that one of the tenants of one of the foundational tenants of counselling is that um what you say uh is not defined by what you actually communicated by but by how you were heard. And so the the the point that he was saying is that actually the responsibility is on you to make as the communicator to make sure that you're actually being heard properly. Um and um and yeah, I thought about that. I thought about that all night. I love I love that kind of stuff because because I now find myself in in arguably the most contentious uh square of all, where people are just yelling at each other and uh uh and um uh and and yet and yet it doesn't have to be like this. This is what this is what I'm I'm absolutely convinced that if we can actually listen to artificado, to actually carefully listen to one another, which begins with actually listening to ourselves and understanding ourselves really well, then we can actually have constructive communication. But quite at moi moya, that's the dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Well, well, you know, on the Mudai, you know, there's a hell of a lot of talk. Um and uh uh just just not too far from uh where I am here, because I I'm down in the uh Manu Manuatu, there's a little township called um Fakoron. And apparently that was a meeting place, you know. It's like it's not called speak, the town's called listen.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

It's it's literally called Fakoron, actually places. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

It's not too far from here. So that's I I I like that, you know. Well, you know, my father-in-law told me that story. We're we're driving past I hope it's true.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Well, you know, um uh oneaka uh is actually that because it's because Naitahu uh don't um pronounce their NGs become Ks. So what what Wanaka in in in the dialect that's used um in Tel Maori across the rest of the country would actually be one anger. Um and so it was it's called so in other words it is a place of dialogue, the actual the actual town is. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Because that gets used for s oh well Kudra is school, but that's a place of learning as well, is it called? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Kudra is specifically a school, but kuda is a is a type of one anger. So a one anger is really any kind of assembly where you're coming to to learn uh and and and listen carefully here.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Interesting. Well well, synagogue, you know, because I'm Jewish, that means assembly too.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Ah, right.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Yeah, like place to for people to come and and everything. So yeah. So so well, let's get on to your um journey into the Māori. So so what took you there? Um I mean the the charity stuff is is uh really interesting to me. Um that that that you that so so it was the charity stuff that took you there, wasn't it?

Places Of Listening And Learning

Why Te Reo Became Personal

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah. So the the my my first interaction with it was a guy called uh Dr. Samuel Carpenter. Um so he did his uh postgraduate work uh in in in the in the area of uh what the the the history of the treaty and what brought that about in New Zealand in the process. He did a lot of work around a guy called Henry Williams, um, who for listeners who aren't aware, Williams was the um the the the founding uh uh missionary of the Church Missionary Society. Uh he's he arrived in 1823. He spent pretty much the first 15 years really getting to know uh all of the chiefs, building um their uh building relationship with them. You know, he started schools and obviously churches and the like, became uh an expert in Tarao Māori and uh actually was part of the group that was petitioned the British government to how um to have a formal agreement um with with uh with with the Iwi of uh New Tiruni, New New Tiruni. Um and uh so he was the one who actually translated the um to um the Treaty at Waitang or to Tititi or Waitangi. Uh and um it was so so Sam gave me a biography of Henry Williams, that sort of was the the the the first seeds that were laid, uh, and then those seeds eventually uh began to take root. Uh and uh well many years later, sort of seven, seven, eight years later, I was sitting in uh in the in the back of uh conference hall um of one of the first charities that I'd started, and we had a guy called Dr. Alastair Reese who who like likewise had done his postgraduate work uh in that space uh and he told a story of of Al Terra of New Zealand that I hadn't really heard told in that way before. And um, and it just yeah, it something completely shifted in my heart. And I think those that seed that had been planted all those years before and sort of been threatening to burst into life came through. Uh fast forward a few months, I found myself, maybe maybe a year actually later, I found myself um back at parenting place. Uh, and I there was a friend of mine that I really wanted to uh get back on on worship and board, a lady called Tawaka McLeod. She had lived in Auckland for seven years, moved back to Tatanaki, and I wanted her to come back, and she said to me that she wouldn't come back because the reason she had gone home was because in Totanaki she could be genuinely who she was, fully as Maori. In other words, in speaking Maori and the the T Kang or the culture of the way that she did things, being fully Maori, and she'd never been able to do that in Auckland. And so as much as she wanted to work with me and loved the vision that I had for we're going to take parenting place, she couldn't come back to that. So I said to her, um, well, what about we change this place so that you can be that person? And she said she looked at me and said, Greg, you have you have no idea what you're what you're talking about. And I said to her, Yeah, but I said, You remember that crazy dream that you had? So if I go back sort of 14 years before this, she'd come to me one morning, way back when we were working together at the beginning, way at the beginning of another charity. She'd come to me one morning, she said, I had dreamed last night, you were speaking in fluent Tadel Maori in front of a whole whole group of um of uh of Maori leaders. And I said to her, Wow, what did you get for dinner? Uh and um and I sort of reminded her of that dream, and she was like, Yeah, okay, well, let's give it a go. So she moved up from Taranaki the following month, and I said to Her, well, you know, this is the uh you you came here on an understanding. What what should we do? So she said to me, Well, and to begin with, Greg, we're gonna uh I really want us to run our HUI uh in a in a in a Māori way, and that just simply means that we're gonna start with me and Karakia, we're gonna do Wayata, and um, and uh it'll build, you know, it really will build relationship. And so I need you to to to as the leaders to see uh you need to start. And she goes, So here's here's something you need to learn. Away it went. And it was, oh yeah, it was it was it's pretty painful. Uh I've got the head of the. I could see you're I could see you going back there. Oh man, it was bad. So we had our staff meetings at 10 o'clock on a Tuesday, and we'd uh we'd bring all of the Auckland crew together, and then from the other offices around the country we would zoom them in. And I found myself, I've always been you know reasonably comfortable, very comfortable in front of it in front of a uh an audience. And uh and uh yet at quarter to 10 on a Tuesday morning, I felt my pulse just start to increase and I was like, ooh. And so I'd get up there, you know, 10 o'clock would start, and you know, 10 o'clock. And uh after about half an hour, one of my uh sorry, after about six, six months, uh a friend uh one of my um two ICs came to me and said, Um, that was a really good meeting this morning. Uh it's this is actually starting to feel quite natural, isn't it, Craig? And I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's it's it's actually it is just getting better week by week. He looks at me and he goes, Because you know that like for the first three months it was just painfully awkward. I was like, You're telling me, dude. Oh but um I'm so pleased I had to go through that experience because it just gives me uh it gives me such empathy for um for for for others who are who are in that space. And the reality of it is that that's where that's where we're we're where most most New Zealanders who are saying, hey, I I I I want I want to be able to uh walk a bit more in in those in those spaces. I'd love to be able to start to use a bit more of the language. I want to want to feel more comfortable um at home within these times of cultural spaces and begin to incorporate them a bit into into place that we were meaning before you were mentioning before in terms of just what you naturally pick up. Um but that it gives me real empathy for what they're going through because it really is awkward. I mean, you are you're you're literally learning a new language, you're literally learning a new way of being. And within that, you there's all kinds of self-doubts that come in, particularly because there's this, I think, this underlying sense of like, oh my goodness, this is the language and this is the original language and culture of New Zealand. You know, I'm a New Zealander, I probably should know some of this stuff, but I don't, and that makes me feel really inadequate. And and I think that's you know, that is part of what we wrestle with in terms of in terms of the um the gut reactions that you get get from people to these kinds of things. Uh, but anyway, so that that all carried on. We then started um teaching the staff um to Romali, those who wanted to learn it. So we had massive uptake. We started giving people um leave time during the week. We formed a relationship with Tawanong Old Torah and began to operate classes um in our function rooms downstairs there in Green Lane in Auckland and began to invite other community groups in. We started helping other charitable organizations and commercial organizations begin to go on there. What we called Heidinger, which literally just means um journey. So Heidi is to go, and you put that na on the end, it makes the noun of the verb. So they're going on this journey, and that for us was how we would refer to this journey that we were going on in terms of reshaping the organization uh out of with with with an understanding of Teo Maori without out of the Maori world. Um not surprisingly, um, you know, a number of people who were um who were wanting to uh pursue Real Maori and and and the Maori world started to apply, increasingly apply for um positions within the organization, and so that becomes a self-fulfilling thing. Um yeah, and then they just carried on for several years and oh so many fantastic things came out of it. Lots and lots of speakers, um, the reshape the the the sort of the old uh sometimes it's funny now. I like I I reach for words and it's it's Maori words that come to mind. I was about to say could could the ahua or to uh or tearang up, so that the just the the sense of the feeling of the organization began to shift. Um and then and then um another thing that came from it ultimately I won't bore you with all the details, but uh eventually emerged emerged a um uh a onega. Um so it's called Tawananga Uihorangi. Um uh so the the place of learning um brought down from the sky. And as it's uh it's a faith-based um well, yeah, it's a faith, yeah, faith-based um um um immersion college uh that that delivers now a bachelor's degree as of this year in Taraw Māori. So it's out in Waitakre in in West Auckland in conjunction with Label College, which is a private um college out there. And this is our third year of operating and it's um yeah, it's going wonderfully. In fact, one of my own um children is is in the third year there, so he's now a very confident Adal Māori speaker, and from that his his part-time job is he's a sports commentator with Māori television, which is uh which the whole dimension to the family conversations.

Building A Māori-Friendly Workplace

SPEAKER_03 27:08

I I've got a good friend that yeah, well, I got a good friend that was a cause because I I used to do a show called Nati NRL. I don't know if you know of that show, but it was a big hit on Māori TV for for Yeah, for many years. Well, it was a great show, like you know, being from Utahu, I'm I love rugby league. And and this was like a dream job. So I I was post-directing this show and and they were we were following young Mori and Pacific Island um hopeful, you know, league players, often some of them were 16 and stuff, because the systems over in Australia, like they I'll put them in a new school at 13 over there, you know, they'll say to their parents in in in Otara, you know, look, move over. We'll move the lot of you over. You'll go to this school, you'll be in this, and he'll be a feed in the feeder club to to the roosters eventually. You know, they really they start that young. It was quite fascinating. And um and uh Tiadahi Maipe would do the uh voiceover and he'd do a lot of commentary. And so, you know, when I say that uh I was picking up lots of you know words, uh koopoo, like if every um every show would have a couple of games in it, so a try, bit oh, you know, like so I was getting all of those. Yeah, you know, being games that they were repeating a lot. So I was going, okay, now I'm getting this, I'm getting this. I'll tell you another thing that happened to me that I want to share too. I have written about this in a piece for stuff a while back on on the language, and that was I um uh I I I was given a couple of this is back when we had DV tapes, you know, like we didn't it wasn't even you know digital yet. And uh the the producer said, I want I want a 20-second sound, like a grab, we would call it like a sound grab from um uh Tatiana Tudia, you know. And I'm like, okay, but I had two hours of um footage to look at. And I was like, oh, okay, well, yeah, so I gotta, you know, look through all of this of just a talking head of her talking to to get 20 seconds out of. And you know, my attitude to Māori politics and everything at the time wouldn't I wasn't hostile or anything, but I I guess I probably had uh I I'd say what would probably be quite a standard view of like our country's great. I mean, is there much to complain about? You're okay, you know, you know, that sort of idea. I'm not really racist or anything, but just a bit, oh come on, guys, everything's cool. Yeah, you know, that sort of vibe. Yeah. And so I was um I was watching this, and you know, I I'd only encountered her in 10 second grabs or or or or sign bites and things like that. I never and so I listened to the the complete two hours and completely changed my worldview and really opened me up into the Maori experience and some of the grievances and some of the development and also the entrepreneurship um that was going on within Māori that I don't think people really appreciate. And I did read afterwards actually that Mori and and Jews are the two most entrepreneurial people per capita in the world.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

That's pretty awesome. Yeah, but but the tragedy of that story is that I only had uh they wanted 20 seconds. And it's like, and I thought, well, just put the whole thing up there. Yeah. I mean, so many people would have a different experience if they heard it like this, but we weren't doing that. But we sort of are now with podcasts and everything. Yeah, that's it. But at the time we weren't really weren't really doing that. But we we we do have that opportunity. Uh that's a thing with the internet, isn't it? Because a lot of people say, oh, it's a bad place, it's a dark place, but it's actually de-radicalizing a lot of people, I think. It's it's it's it's giving them access to to people like this and and and their worldview. Yeah, you got it.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, yeah. It's like any new technology, it can, it can, it's it's how it's used, right? Yeah. It's like people, people, it's this goes back to the earlier part of our conversation around around parliament and politics. There's nothing, there's nothing inherently wrong with this place. It's just made by the people who are here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

Yeah. Yeah. And there would be some people that would think, well, you know, I just keep my head down and coast through and I'm gonna have a good, you know, there would be those people, you know, there would be who would treat it like a prison sentence and say, you know, yeah, don't try to be top dog, just just uh sit in the pocket, everything will be fine. But and yeah, and others who are like, I think, yeah, like a joy, you know, who who are like, I'm I'm here to make change. Yep. I'm gonna do that, you know, and that that's that's who they are. So um we got a lot of uplift from you um talking uh about the Tadeo journey, but learning a language is hard.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Like like there would have been some pretty miserable days.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Oh my goodness. And still and still are. I mean, I still just you know, I doubt myself all the time. I mean, even yesterday I was uh uh speaking in the House on the Prime Minister's statement. So it's a it's a a time-limited debate. So I get my five minutes and um I you know, as I as I go to get to my feet, I'm still I'm still second guessing myself as to uh as to whether I'm going to speak in Tadal Māori and if so when, and da da da. I had I had a moment at the end of last year, I think it was, it was the Nati Palwa settlement. So they're the one of the um the iwi from um Tamaki Makoto, um so from the the Great Auckland area, and I had the privilege of speaking at their third reading, and I just determined I'm gonna speak in in Tadal Māori Um out of if um out of respect for them and and because you know I I I I do believe you know we need the the way that we grow a language is to use it, and you know, we need to need to need to hear it more. Um but speaking in front of a gallery that's packed with you know, you you know there's gonna be heaps of native speakers there. And yeah, I just had to talk myself through, go, come on, Greg, just do this, you can do this. And um, and yeah, and that's you know, that's nearly two years in where I've spoken heaps of time in in today's Māori, but it is, it's just that that that constant um second guessing, oh, and in that particular instance, I had actually ended up writing out my speech, and I'm like, oh, here we go. Oh, because and then and then the speaker changed just before I came in. So the person sitting in the chair, the presiding officer, and the one that came in is a guy called Greg O'Connor. And uh he's he's a real stickler for members not reading their speeches. And so I thought, oh, oh no. Oh, well, maybe he tohu as in, like this is a sign. And so I just folded the speech, put it away, got to my got to my um you know, feet, efta mungofari, no ku de marting inuki as do kikonei, and and away I went, and it just flowed and yeah, I spoke for five minutes, uh, and and yeah, and under stepped, yeah, yeah. And then and I I had nothing but encouraging feedback from people, even up at Waitangi last week. Uh, there was someone who was no uh turned out had been in the gallery and they said to me, Oh yeah, I was there when you gave that speech, and we so appreciated you know speaking in the Al Maori. There was not not not a hint of judgment, um, and it you know, and yet I'm sure my speech would have just been filled with grammatical errors and like. Um but um but there was nothing other than just thanks and encouragement. Um it was just and and that yeah, but it is, yep. No, every every day I I find myself learning. I just yeah, always new koo poo to learn um and new structures to go back over. But the biggest one is just the confidence, the confidence to use it.

From Awkward Starts To Real Uptake

SPEAKER_03 34:33

You know, because I I I I I read biblical Hebrew and I and I have like led services and done done done stuff like that. The one that gets me, which I think people are quite harsh on is pronunciation. And you know, like some people can be quite tough on pronunciation. But you know, when we're young, we have a language, our mother, our mother tongue, you know, literally our mother will speak to us and teach us um mainly. Um and and our our mouths actually do shape to that language. Yeah, like and so it's and I really don't like it when people come down hard on things like this, because that's when the person who probably was open to learning clams up, shuts up, doesn't want to share anymore, you know? And I and it's physiological, I I believe. Because I went to drama school way back, and I know I know it is. Yeah. And it's uh it's something like like Hebrew, if you go the uh in the throat. Not everyone can just do that. You gotta you gotta learn that, you know. Um I I'd never leap on someone for not getting that right.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

No, and uh first off, you know. You know, in my experience is that that is that that really is the exception for someone who does that. Um, you know, the the pronunciation police uh are very few and far between. Um I certainly my my my my experience 99% of the time has been the one that I was referencing before, which is people just um uh focus on the positive and just really, really appreciate it. I I had that years ago when I was um I learned French all the way through my teen years and then lived with a French family in Tahiti one summer and the like. And and um, you know, it always uh people always said to me, Oh, you know, the French are so rude and da-da-da-da, about then, you know, no, all the when you go to France, all they want to do is speak their language. I'm like, really, imagine that. Then they're in France and they want to speak French. How unreasonable. Anyway, so I first time I went to France, that well, I had totally and I I was even in Paris, I was in Paris, you know, where apparently the worst, you know, the the um uh enforcers are, and I had nothing but just appreciation for the fact that I was actually trying to speak their language. You know, 99% of the time they'd they'd let me mangle their language for three or four sentences at most and then switch to English. Um, but there was nothing other than um than appreciation. So I I do that's that's and I may maybe I'm the exception, I'm not sure, but in in both both the French setting and the Māori setting, I have found overwhelmingly that when you make the effort to actually use the language and um then then it's just it's met with appreciation, not judgment.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Um I know we we we briefly talked about it uh before the uh we kicked off the interview, but I I do want to talk about um the way forward for Tereo Māori. Um there was uh uh controversy about um the you know the names of government departments um uh which had been primarily in Maori with maybe like the the English as the second. Yeah. And that that did get swapped around. I was it New Zealand first that did that or was it? Yeah, and I think it was.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah, that was part of the coalition agreement for New Zealand First.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Yeah, um that that was a uh topic that got a lot of heat. And uh it got it's the you know, it's the perfect story for the it's the kind of that that they're gonna really gravitate towards. But I tended to feel that both um both sides were were getting that wrong on on the right or or or just the the people that are sort of maybe not even the right, but just just not sympathetic to to uh um you know Māori language being out there in the world. Um uh you know, you can live with the title of a government department, you know. Uh this isn't this your language is not being robbed, taken away. You know, it's not a takeover, a hostile takeover. You know, it's it's one thing you know. So I I thought that was a bit sad. Um it's so ungenerous, isn't it? To me, it's just so ungenerous. Well, it um it is.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

I mean, the one, the one, the one, the one I do I do have a little bit of sympathy around where it had gone in some places. There was a case, I mean my wife uh um has has studied uh you know the um Roa Maori quite a bit, and she and I worship at Mehinari, uh Mahinari Church, so Tiana Tapu, so Maori Anglican Church, which is a bilingual church, so she can follow along uh most of the most of those things. She really wrestled with um with with with literally uh I forget which government department it was, but there was one day she was trying to reach out to a government department and she literally couldn't work out which government department she was she was talking to or supposed to be talking to. Um and that and that was that was that was it, you know, maybe maybe two and a half years ago. And that was a moment where I was like, yeah, okay, we're probably losing the essence here. It's actually really important. First and foremost, I mean the the primary purpose of language is communication, right? I mean, language does a lot more than just communicate, it carries stories and identity, and and which is why you know I'm such a proponent of seeing the regeneration and flourishing of Tel Maldik. But but first and foremost the language is communication. And when when when so when when when those two aspects conflict, the first one has to take preeminence. So when you're a government department and people actually don't know who you are, what you do, then you've probably got the wrong name. And that could apply for um if you didn't have a great English name. So, you know, if if the health department, uh it's one thing for it to be called, what was it, the Father Order, but if it was called, you know, um the New Zealand Department of Um of Life Outcomes, you'd probably want to go, okay, we need to reset this. This is probably this should be called the Health Department. Um so I I do think we'd gone it that the things had gone too far one way. And and and and I and I do think there was an there was an element of that which was um from from those who whose approach to seeing the language grow is we're gonna force this on people. Uh and and that's you know, I'm a no I'm not a fan of that approach at all. For me, I was generously invited into a space uh and enticed into learning this language, and um that's the approach, that's the only approach that I want to take with people. That's why, for example, I'm not I'm not supportive of making um Tadel Maori compulsory at schools, um, for example, or compulsory in the workplace or anything. It should always be an invitation to people.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yeah, see, I'm I'm quite for well maybe if we could we could do that.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Well, maybe this is where free speech union comes in as well.

Founding An Immersion College

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Well, well, well, see, see, cause because the the point you just made about not not you know not having that clarity in in the communication aspect, yeah, uh that sort of goes to my critique of the left on it, because uh maybe it was cut before the horse. Because um, you know, a a department in Maori isn't normalizing the language. I think they think it's normalizing the language. We're seeing more Maori. No, you got to it's about speaking it, it's about learning it. You know what I mean? So this this is tokenism.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Well it is, and the problem with tokenism is that actually it actually destroys both things because you you you don't in the process, you not only do you not actually end up advancing the cause of growing uh the language, but you end up making um opponents out of people who otherwise might have been invited and enticed along a journey of discovery. Uh and in other words, in other words, it's almost the equivalent of giving someone a vaccine. You inoculate them against the thing, against the other thing you, well, another way you can take it, you you you you give them an you give them an allergy to it. I I I had this with so many of my friends who who over the space of while while I was going on my my own um hiding or journey, uh, they were they were increasingly, I was a close family members who were in increasingly interested in what was going on. And I found myself having conversations around street signs and Tadal Māori or breaking down Koopu, da da da da da. And then in uh this was sort of was around about 2017, 2018 thing, we started to see more and more of it. And then we had that period from, and unfortunately it was, it was a government-led thing. It was really, really unfortunate, but we did have that that period from um 2020 to 2023 where uh where it felt to me like in in a number of contexts the language was weaponized. Uh and and I saw the the unfortunate fruits of that and the allergic reactions from these from these family friends of mine who had you know had just just prior to that, as I say, started to, for the first time in their life, be interested in going on a journey with Real Māori. They were now like, oh my goodness, you know, this Maori's being shoved down my throat and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And and for me, it just more than anything, it just spoke of a lack of patience and a lack of wisdom around how you regenerate a language. You can't regenerate a language by for by having a government force it on people. Um, language, language can only be regenerated by actually appealing to people's hearts. Uh, that's been my experience, and that's the only approach that I ever want to take with people.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Well, it's forced on people, but in in a very some symbolic way, in a way that's not really going to to achieve what people think it's gonna do anyway. That's the the so it's like uh you're you're spoiling goodwill for for for very little gain.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Yeah, it's exactly the sad thing.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

That's the issue, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

I mean, yeah, uh like in Israel, Hebrew people picked up Hebrew, but a lot of Jews didn't have a common language. You know, that was a difference. You know, I guess people coming in from different, you know, parts of the uh of the world and some would have been, you know, speaking Arabic and Spanish and all sorts of different, you know, French and all sorts of different um German, you know. Um, so they needed that common language. There's an aspect there. We don't have that here. We've got a common tongue. That's tricky because uh Mori can speak English and uh New Zealand, you know, opachia, you know, non-Maldi can speak English. That that's an issue. So for me, I don't know how we get bilingual without uh our children uh learning it, you know, as part of their schooling. Now, I the compulsion aspect there uh I could live with because uh, you know, if if you're if you're bilingual, it it it it does wonders for the brain. You can pick up a third language, a fourth language, you know, like it it it actually it it's a great exercise to be able to uh to to you know to to have that in terms of learning and your ability to learn more. So there are only positives even beyond uh a specific language. Now, some people can say, oh, well, learn Chinese then. That's gonna be the way of the future. Or learn this or learn that. It's like yeah, actually, because that's the thing that gets me. It's like when people say, Well, this is a dying language, why would you let any language die? Well, you know, um I I Yes, no, I I hear that.

Media, Sport, And Learning By Osmosis

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Although the reality of it is that you know, we got you know thousands, tens of thousands of years of human history in which the vast majority of languages that have existed no longer do. Um the reality of it is of the rise and fall of civilizations and the evolution of people in their societies, uh languages do come and go. And so I think within that we also do need to be realistic society as to as to what we're aiming for. And so, I mean, I I myself, you know, used use that term as well, bilingual society. But um, I mean, I don't when i if if I f if I if I if I sort of you know witty witty tea dafacado, if I really pull that that thought apart, what is is is my vision that in you know two generations from now um most New Zealanders are able to um um operate in both English and Trau Māori? Well, yeah, I mean that would be amazing. Um in terms of is that is that realistically what I'm aiming for? Probably not, in so far as just even the even the realities of ongoing immigration, with our birth rate being what it is, we are going to continue to and and the the very nature of part of being in New Zealand is that you go and spend a chunk of your life living overseas, and most of us have have have done it. I can't see why why uh subsequent generations might continue to do it with that kind of continual mix. I think we've got to be realistic about um that that that's a uh an unattainable future. I think even even as you know, I'm a I'm a natural-born optimist and I'd love to be strategic and all the rest, but hopefully I'm also realistic enough to say, well, that that's not possible. So what is it that we're aiming for? And and I think it is, I think, I think what we can realistically aim for is to have a significant number of New Zealanders. I don't know whether that's a a third of New Zealanders who who 20 years from now are comfortable with having um uh conversations in Tadel Māori uh andor you know wrapping that into their into their regular exchanges. I mean, for me, a simple aim is is just to hear it more and more in the House of Parliament. Uh at the moment, there's probably only half a dozen MPs who could actually get up and speak for several minutes in in Tadel Māori. I would love to to see that that grow, uh, just with this, you know, with the with the significant role that that that that um that house plays from all of New Zealand, hearing it more spoken there would be great. Um but but even I'm even I'm I'm not imagining a a future where where you know every member in the House um or the over one majority can converse in Real Madrid. I just I don't see in terms of my study of of language revitalization and my love of history, I I just don't see that as being achievable. And I I do think it's really important that we that we're realistic about what it is that we're aiming for. Because otherwise, we will end up choosing to go down roads that lead us to, for example, renaming all of our government departments in um with with names that the vast majority of people don't even understand.

SPEAKER_03 48:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I think uh my own, and I've thought about this a lot, like my own argument against my position is that, well, who are the teachers? You know, you're talking about tens of thousands of people, aren't you? That would be required to teach everyone from Cape Ranga right down to the bluff. Correct. Like you would need a lot of people, and and this isn't if they're learning it the way they're learning English, um uh, you know, this is this is a lot of learning. You know, this is a lot of learning. And it may, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

So I to that extent, you know, I'm a big uh with my one of my favorite parts in my job as an MP is I get to sit on the Maori Affairs Select Committee and like the favourite part of that, well, it was two favourite parts. One is I love treaty settlements because uh treaty settlements actually uh give uh Iwi and hapu the opportunity to to pursue genuine tieranga tiratanga, and which is literally just means the ability to actually be able to really look after yourselves. I'm not talking about separate systems and the like, but I was meaning, you know, there's so wealthy families uh in New Zealand um have tienaranga tiretanga in terms of the fact they've got their ability to be able to look after themselves. Um and and that's what I'm look for look for with Eevee and Harpo, and that's what treaty settlements enable those communities to do. And and the other thing about treaty settlements is that they take our eyes off the past. Uh, not we don't we don't forget about the past. And the other day we're all, you know, that we don't learn our history, we're we're doomed to repeat it. But rather as a nation, I do think we need to be looking forward more. So that's my number one, I love treaty settlements. But number two is the um is the the the the language revitalization revitalization entities. Now, I in my opinion we had too many, we have four or five, and I'd love to see them come together into either one or two. But um what I do um love is is seeing the the the the the fruit of their work, particularly in the home. And so um in in my opinion, that probably one of the one of the two most impressive of those entities is called um um Tamatawai, and their focus is is primarily on regenerating their language in the home. So making um Tere al Māori um the primary language um of the family, because as you were saying before, it that's where language is is is first and foremostly learned. And and I love that. So I I've got much more a focus on on how on how as a government we can help um support those kinds of contexts rather than looking at skills, which again speak to me of a sort of a government government mandated approach and thou shalt all learn today al Māori. Um like that that yeah, for both in terms of that's yeah, how to turn people off a language and not be very effective.

unknown 51:04

Yeah.

Confidence, Pronunciation, And Kindness

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Well, that you know, I think the sad thing there too is that, you know, uh being a member of a minority community myself, it's like if if people and this is a big reason why I uh oppose that the hate speech laws, you know, if people and you can see what's happening in Australia, if people think these things are happening uh from if they're coming, if they're driven by a minority, that can create a lot of resentment. Like the the majority can really sort of you know push back. And I think we we we can see that with um with things like language. Um you know, I still think it's quite ungenerous, but it's not always rational or thought through. But there is that sort of compulsion as an issue. Like even like the you know, the treaty, when people talk about the treaty and um uh and the workplace, it's like, well, you know, there's where's a neutrality here, you know. Do I have to feel uh one way or the other and and everything? I mean, I've had production companies that will talk about the treaty then, you know, and they say, Are you fine with it? And I'm saying, I'm fine with it. And then day one, it's never brought up again. No. They never they never go there again. No, you know, it's just a question they ask at the interview, and then I think, well, that's kind of disappointing as well. But um, yeah, but for me, compulsion is an issue. Like I think there's a natural instinct in people to push back when they're told what to do like that, you know? Yeah and it it so but but uh but I yeah, but my vision of I I think what you you're you you're winning me over. I think that is a good way to go. Sure. Well, we you know, the whole thing with the home is like with me, I I I do the Sabbath with my children. Um, we've got songs, we've got things like that that we do, which are repetitive. And so they they have a bit of Hebrew, you know, they're gonna have a little bit of it because these are sort of rituals that happen in the home that we can do and repeat and all that kind of stuff, not making them fluent yet. They need a couple of years in Israel or something like that for that. But but uh the the idea is there, the seed is there, and and the the love of language is there. Like my my son's fluent in Germany now, he just decided I want to learn German. Yeah, yeah, he he he did that. Because the other thing is, and you probably would pick this up too, it's like language is not just I mean, it's communication, uh obviously, but it's sort of it's a window into the past, it's a window, window into the soul of a people. Like certain words get used, like the more biblical Hebrew made sense to me, like in the beginning. No, a beginning. A beginning. What's that mean? I still haven't answered that, but yeah, yeah. But it's interesting, you know what I mean? There all these little things that sort of go, oh, of course it would have been, you know, like of course that's a way we live back then. That's why they're using that term. But the English translation is sort of contemporizing, or it's like it's it's you know, it it it doesn't want to give a history lesson, it just wants to get through the sentence in the translation. So it's gonna sort of miss things that that you pick up in the original, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

100%, yeah. Hence that hence the you know the the the truth in that term, you know, lost in translation. Um it literally is. I mean, I and um I mean I found uh since learning Tadel Māori uh that I I start most mornings, uh every morning now I've developed a discipline um of reading Tapai Pitta Tapu. Um so uh so when I read the the the the scriptures in the morning, I now read them in Tadel Māori, not in English. One of the one of the one of the um the the many things I've found from that is that, and I actually spoke about this in my maiden speech a couple of years ago here in Parliament, is that is that it's um these these scriptures that I've uh was raised on in my own family home, um, and and I know reasonably well because of that, the the it's it's um it's brought them um uh a newly alive. There's this there's fresh things that I see in these same scriptures because uh because they're in another language. Um and um and then and then also I then see um having having read them in today al Maori, I then see how how how many of these scriptures have been incorporated into um uh Maori language, Maori metaphors and Maori stories, because of course the that that that that that Christian gospel so shaped Maori society from uh the mid-1830s through till the end of the uh the 19th century.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Yeah, yeah. No, that that that's that's that's fascinating. I mean, but the thing with Hebrew I found um is that there's a lot of puns. Right, yeah. It's quite a playful language in that way. So there's a lot of plays on words and things, and it's like it's just it's just a bit, and that gets flattened out a bit in in in um translations. But it we had James Lindsay here recently, and he was talking about this sort of communist word that was used, and it was a German word, and you know, and the German communists would use, and it meant to to uplift while tearing something apart. So uplifting a system while sort of ripping it to bits and and and destroying that system. And it's like, wow, in English, we'd need a paragraph.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Which is why we've got one word. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. Well, it's the you start to see the saying, like in in terms of our um uh in terms of uh our you know the English language, the number of words that we bring in, you know, like Schadenfreud, like trying to describe there is a I mean we've you know some we have masochism, we have sadism, you know, da-da-da-da-da, but but Schadenfreud is it's it's a playful term. Um, and you're not you're not genuinely delighting in the in someone else's suffering, um, but you are taking a a uh you know a sort of an amusing pleasure at someone's discomfort. Well sometimes I okay. A fine line between that and sadism. Um but but we we we we do this. And is interestingly in in terms of the revitalization of today's Maori as well, is it's um this is again something I've I've been following quite closely for a few years now, around um, around both some people loving the way that we're incorporating um cupu Maori, so Maori words w into English, and other people because they're saying, you know, this is this is the naturalization of it, uh, and and I'm probably more in that camp. And but then others who say, well, actually, that's the way that historically uh existing languages have have stopped to exist as separate entities. And they're sweet, yeah. Correct. In other words, this is the evolution of language, and they and we don't want that evolution to happen because we don't want to lose Maori as a as a as a distinct language. And um, and I, you know, I do I do hear that. The the reality of it is um that I think I think I genuinely think we can do both. Uh and so I I love it when I hear non-Mādi speakers using terms like, you know, Mahi and Totokel um and Fakaru and Fano and all that, and I say, look, bring it on, do more and more of it, but at the same time, don't don't pretend that that's the that's the language regeneration pathway. We need we need a Yeah, but you're now a speaker. Correct. But but what it is is it's uh is it's uh it's it's growing a um you know a real distinctive of of living in this land and drawing from that language, yeah.

Using Reo In The House

SPEAKER_03 58:26

Oh great. Well we'll be going a while, so I think we can we can call it a day. Um but uh yeah, no, um so I'll just do my little sign-off. Um so uh yeah, well, thank you, Greg. This was really good. I I think it's a positive um uh conversation to have, and it was been really good to get your journey and your you know your story on all this. Uh if you have any questions for us, um do do send them in uh at pod uh podcast at f su.nz. We'd we'd love your feedback on all of this stuff and to keep the conversation going. Um yeah, so well, maybe, maybe there's um I'm gonna I'm um, you know, and you can even send people our way if you if you want, uh Greg, um who who might want to speak to this, um different aspects on the language and and everything like that. I think it's a fascinating topic and one that we really want to uh keep talking about. So thank you. Thank you for for uh tuning in and um uh we will uh see you all next time on Free to Speak. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Thank you for listening to Free to Speak. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and consider sharing the podcast with others. We release new episodes regularly, and subscribing is the easiest way to stay up to date. If you have any questions, feedback, or suggestions, you can contact us at podcast at5.nc. If you want to find out more about the New Zealand Free Speech Union, visit f5.